Slonimsky's Theasaurus

[Jaml]

It is well known that John Coltrane consulted Slonimsky's Theasaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns.

Has anyone here looked at it?

If so, have they found its manner of organisation [i.e., divisions of the octave] useful?

[houseofshawn]

I've never heard of it, I guess I'm out in the cold. Do you know if it can be found to buy or check out somewhere? Or is it pretty rare?

[Professor1]

I think it may be out of print. I saw one at a local Half Price Books store for relatively cheap, but I didn't know what it was at the time. I keep looking to see if another one comes through.

[kawe]

Professor

You can find it here, starting at 20 $ (paperback ed.):

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0825672406/104-4941962-0408704?v=glance

[Professor1]

Thanks alot. I didn't even know there was a paperback edition. The one I saw was hardbound and it was an oversize book. Would have been a nice addition to my growing print music library. Recent additions have been The Wall by Pink Floyd. A Mighty Wind, which was a great folk music movie spoof. And an anthology of popular American songs since before 1776. I'm still waiting to purchase a copy of the Sternhold and Hopkins. Maybe the Slonimsky can be after that.

[Jaml]

Yeah it's certainly in print [paperback].

Looking at Pat Martino's website I notice that he works on divisions of the octave;

www.blackdiamondsystems.com/~pmartino/NatureOfGuitar_GS041204/nature_of_the_guitar_1.htm

Martino's system looks rather arcane. The Slonimsky is straightforward - divisions of the octave(s) from the tritone up to the chromatic scale, adding all possible embelishments in between.
He also lists all kinds of pentatonics, hexatonics, heptatonics, 12 tone scales etc., etc., - it is a great resource.
It is to a musician what the Roget's Theasaurus is to a writer.

Get it as a Christmas present ... for yourself!

[SamMunro]

I have but am scared to look at it just yet.

[SamMunro]

be warned it's written in the grand staff for piano players. reading on the guitar is a real mind contorteur.

[Professor1]

If guitar were written at the actual pitch, it would cover the grand staff too. The low E is actually the first ledger line below the bass clef.

[mahayana]

It does make you wonder where the convention of writing guitar music in the treble clef originated. I have a childhood memory of breaking a string on a friend's guitar, trying to tune it to a piano.

[Professor1]

mahayana said:

It does make you wonder where the convention of writing guitar music in the treble clef originated.

The guitar is a "transposing instrument"--it transposes what is written. There are a great many transposing instruments: Piccolo, Clarinet, Trumpet, all of the Saxophones, F horns, and Double Bass (and bass guitar) are but a few. The concept is to make it easier to read music on each particular instrument.

A large part of this simplification is reduction of ledger lines. A viola reads alto clef so that ledger lines are minimized. Piccolo plays an octave higher than written, otherwise the player would never see anything but ledger lines. F horn reads in treble clef, but sounds a perfect 5th lower than the written note. Bass clarinet reads treble clef, but sounds a major ninth lower. Baritone sax also reads treble clef, but sounds an octave plus a major sixth lower. This way, all sax players or clarinet players read the same clef, and can switch instruments much more easily.

The guitar sounds an octave lower than written in the treble clef. If this were not the case, then guitar would have to be written on the grand staff, or on one clef only.

If it were bass clef, the A on the second fret of the G string would be the top line of the bass clef, everything higher would be ledger lines. The twelfth fret E on the high E string would be on top of the fifth ledger line above the bass clef. If we read treble clef at pitch, that same 12th fret high E would be the top space of the treble clef, and the open low E string would be the 7th ledger line below the treble clef.

A large part of the problem is that guitar has such a wide range. Many instruments have a rather limited range compared to a guitar, and use far fewer ledger lines than we do. I think that reading treble cleff the way we currently do is the best possible compromise.

[dkaplowitz]

The Thesaurus is a great work. It basically gives you varying scales from 4-notes up to 11-notes (if memory serves) and goes through a number of permutations of the notes within each, calling them such friendly terms as interpolation, extrapolation, ultra-interpolation, etc. etc.

It is written for piano, but I think the ideas by and large can not only be played on guitar, but aren't too hard to figure out and apply to guitar if they're outside the guitar's range. As the OP mentioned, Coltrane used it on the sax, so us guitar players can actually play more of it than he was able to one or two notes at a time.

I'd consider it pretty advanced study -- mostly for someone who's mastered all the diatonic/modes as well as all the modes of harmonic and melodic minor and is looking for something more challenging to work on. Intermediate players can get value from this book, but I think more rudimentary study should come first.

If you can get a copy for $20. I'd say grab it, though check around, you might find a used one for a lot less. Just checked...buy.com has it for $18 new if it's in stock (they do free shipping with similar restrictions as amazon). I paid around $50. for my oversize hardbound copy back in the early '90s and I was glad to get it.

P.S. James Blackthorne, a fusion guitar player, wrote a book called "Ancient Secrets of Scales and Modes" that has a somewhat similar approach, but is laid out for guitar. This book gives 8 separate scales, all their modes, and gives fingerings for all of them.

What this book lacks is any direction for how to apply these to playing, like the inter-/extrapolations of the Thesaurus. But it does have the advantage of being for guitar players. It's also $20. and for the cheap stock it's written on it's barely worth it. I would debate getting it if I hadn't already bought it (because I'm comfortable figuring out all the positions/fingerings myself), but some people who have it love it and swear by it, so YMMV.

Good luck,

Dave